Star Wars Character Meta [Canon]
Dec. 6th, 2018 12:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
gffaOriginally posted here.
I was talking with @belldreams the other night and she’d recently rewatched ANH and brought up the question: “Why did Obi-Wan let Darth Vader strike him down?” and, boy, do I have thoughts and feelings about that scene!
But I think it was more than that and the prequels gave it so much more depth. Obi-Wan had spent the last 19 years in the desert in exile, that struggle to get up in the morning every day was only accomplished through his affection for Luke and his duty as a Jedi and holding on to the last bit of Anakin he had, it took everything that was left of him after he might as well have died on Mustafar.
Uncle Owen tells Luke that he thinks his father and General Kenobi died about the same time and, in the OT by itself, it’s a misdirection and rumor, it’s meant to throw the viewer (and Luke) off the scent of what really happened, to keep him safe. But with the new context, it’s such a true line–Obi-Wan Kenobi died on Mustafar, all that was left of him was just a shell, after the loss of the Jedi Order, the loss of his entire culture, and the loss of Anakin. On a personal level, I don’t know that he walked away from that fight, I think he maybe he did die there with Anakin.
Obi-Wan lets Darth Vader kill him because it’s his time, I’m sure the Force was telling him that it was okay to let go of this plane of existence now, and I think Obi-Wan may have welcomed it. He was just a shell of a person by that point, most of what was left of him was his care for other people. This was his next step forward, this is what he was meant for, to buy them time to escape, to show Luke what Darth Vader was capable of, and so that he could be there to spiritually guide Luke through the moments he most needed help in.
But most importantly of all, why did Obi-Wan let Darth Vader kill him?
Because, even if Obi-Wan honestly believed that there was nothing left of Anakin there (and, given his experiences with Sith Lords, I can’t blame him for thinking that, everything he’d been through would have told him exactly that, given Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, and Darth Tyrannus), he still couldn’t kill what was once Anakin Skywalker.
That:
[Originally posted here.]
Anonymous Asked: Just marathoned the prequels; why is Anakin such a whiny little bitch?
Possibly you meant this in nothing but a derogatory way, not wanting any kind of serious answer, but HA HA I AM THE WRONG PERSON TO POSE SUCH A QUESTION TO THEN.
I mean, aside from objecting to the phrasing, Anakin is the way he is because he’s not emotionally stable and he was never meant to be. He’s constantly anxious and fearful and doesn’t know how to deal with his constant, 24/7 boil of sheer amount of feelings, he’s living with this pressure of not feeling like he’s the person he’s supposed to be (he’s not the Jedi he’s supposed to be, he’s not the husband he’s supposed to be, he’s not the friend he’s supposed to be) and forget being the Chosen One, just feeling like you’re failing as a person is enough to fuck anyone over.
Anakin Skywalker was never meant to be a masculine power fantasy, he was never meant to be a cool badass who went dark side just because he had anger issues.
Anakin Skywalker is an actual emotional mess.
He doesn’t know how to talk to anyone about it (see: all the times Obi-Wan offered to talk about things with him, but Anakin could never bring himself to do it, it was too hard, too much, too complicated, he was too afraid of rejection, too afraid of losing people he loved), he lives with the absolutely constant fear of the unknown, the anxiety of “What if things went wrong?? What if I lose this person??” in a way that screams to me of mental health issues. And I relate to that–no matter how illogical it is, sometimes there are brain weasels in my head who will not stop squirming around in there, who will not stop wiggling and writhing and whirling, until that puts a tremendous amount of stress on me emotionally.
He’s someone who has been actively preyed on by Palpatine since he was a child, who constantly fed all the worst impulses and fears Anakin had, who made him think he was the most special ever and that the people who genuinely cared for him were holding him back, that the Jedi never appreciated him and that everything they were trying to do was because they couldn’t see his worth.
Anakin Skywalker hates himself more than anyone else ever could, he has so little sense of self and he tries to force himself to be the person he thinks he’s supposed to be. He idealizes certain things and people and methods, but when they don’t go the way he imagines them, he doesn’t know how to cope with that loss or how to be emotionally stable enough to handle it.
Those scenes he has with Padme in Episode II are so deeply emotional, because Anakin is 100% made of emotions that he doesn’t know how to handle, they are dialed up to 11 in him and he doesn’t know how to turn them back down. And they’re cringe-worthy because he is so very desperate and so very awkward and he doesn’t really know how to handle any of this, but he can’t not reach out to her, he can’t not spill his feelings everywhere.
Anakin Skywalker is someone who is emotions turned way the fuck up and then left at that level–when you want so many things so desperately, when you know you shouldn’t be like this, but you can’t stop yourself, when you have those brain weasels in your head, yeah, you get pretty “whiny” because you’re struggling to stay afloat and it just doesn’t fucking work, but you’re still full of all these feelings and they gotta go somewhere, so they burst out of you and blind you, because they’re just so intense you can’t see past them. They consume you.
And, honestly, I wouldn’t change him. Anakin Skywalker being an actual goddamned emotional mess is what made me understand him and come to love him!
I was talking with @belldreams the other night and she’d recently rewatched ANH and brought up the question: “Why did Obi-Wan let Darth Vader strike him down?” and, boy, do I have thoughts and feelings about that scene!
Even before the context of the prequels, to me it was clear that Obi-Wan knew that he couldn’t beat Darth Vader, there was no point in trying and he wanted to show Luke just what this man was capable of: Killing, in cold blood, someone who lowered their weapon and wasn’t fighting back. Was it a manipulative move? Kinda, but it also relied on Darth Vader murdered a defenseless old man who wasn’t fighting back. Someone who had been mentor and friend would not stop Vader from ruthlessly striking them down. Luke needed to know that.
But I think it was more than that and the prequels gave it so much more depth. Obi-Wan had spent the last 19 years in the desert in exile, that struggle to get up in the morning every day was only accomplished through his affection for Luke and his duty as a Jedi and holding on to the last bit of Anakin he had, it took everything that was left of him after he might as well have died on Mustafar.
Uncle Owen tells Luke that he thinks his father and General Kenobi died about the same time and, in the OT by itself, it’s a misdirection and rumor, it’s meant to throw the viewer (and Luke) off the scent of what really happened, to keep him safe. But with the new context, it’s such a true line–Obi-Wan Kenobi died on Mustafar, all that was left of him was just a shell, after the loss of the Jedi Order, the loss of his entire culture, and the loss of Anakin. On a personal level, I don’t know that he walked away from that fight, I think he maybe he did die there with Anakin.
Obi-Wan lets Darth Vader kill him because it’s his time, I’m sure the Force was telling him that it was okay to let go of this plane of existence now, and I think Obi-Wan may have welcomed it. He was just a shell of a person by that point, most of what was left of him was his care for other people. This was his next step forward, this is what he was meant for, to buy them time to escape, to show Luke what Darth Vader was capable of, and so that he could be there to spiritually guide Luke through the moments he most needed help in.
But most importantly of all, why did Obi-Wan let Darth Vader kill him?
Because, even if Obi-Wan honestly believed that there was nothing left of Anakin there (and, given his experiences with Sith Lords, I can’t blame him for thinking that, everything he’d been through would have told him exactly that, given Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, and Darth Tyrannus), he still couldn’t kill what was once Anakin Skywalker.
That:
Contemplation of death brought only one slight sting of regret, and more than a bit of puzzlement. Until this very moment, [Obi-Wan] had never realized he’d always expected, for no discernible reason–
That when he died, Anakin would be with him.“
–Revenge of the Sith, Matthew Stover
Obi-Wan’s path had led him here. He couldn’t kill what was left of Anakin, no matter how evil and corrupted it was, and it was his time, he was ready to die, with what little of Anakin there was in this galaxy was with him, one last time.
[Originally posted here.]
Anonymous Asked: Just marathoned the prequels; why is Anakin such a whiny little bitch?
Possibly you meant this in nothing but a derogatory way, not wanting any kind of serious answer, but HA HA I AM THE WRONG PERSON TO POSE SUCH A QUESTION TO THEN.
I mean, aside from objecting to the phrasing, Anakin is the way he is because he’s not emotionally stable and he was never meant to be. He’s constantly anxious and fearful and doesn’t know how to deal with his constant, 24/7 boil of sheer amount of feelings, he’s living with this pressure of not feeling like he’s the person he’s supposed to be (he’s not the Jedi he’s supposed to be, he’s not the husband he’s supposed to be, he’s not the friend he’s supposed to be) and forget being the Chosen One, just feeling like you’re failing as a person is enough to fuck anyone over.
Anakin Skywalker was never meant to be a masculine power fantasy, he was never meant to be a cool badass who went dark side just because he had anger issues.
Anakin Skywalker is an actual emotional mess.
He doesn’t know how to talk to anyone about it (see: all the times Obi-Wan offered to talk about things with him, but Anakin could never bring himself to do it, it was too hard, too much, too complicated, he was too afraid of rejection, too afraid of losing people he loved), he lives with the absolutely constant fear of the unknown, the anxiety of “What if things went wrong?? What if I lose this person??” in a way that screams to me of mental health issues. And I relate to that–no matter how illogical it is, sometimes there are brain weasels in my head who will not stop squirming around in there, who will not stop wiggling and writhing and whirling, until that puts a tremendous amount of stress on me emotionally.
He’s someone who has been actively preyed on by Palpatine since he was a child, who constantly fed all the worst impulses and fears Anakin had, who made him think he was the most special ever and that the people who genuinely cared for him were holding him back, that the Jedi never appreciated him and that everything they were trying to do was because they couldn’t see his worth.
Anakin Skywalker hates himself more than anyone else ever could, he has so little sense of self and he tries to force himself to be the person he thinks he’s supposed to be. He idealizes certain things and people and methods, but when they don’t go the way he imagines them, he doesn’t know how to cope with that loss or how to be emotionally stable enough to handle it.
Those scenes he has with Padme in Episode II are so deeply emotional, because Anakin is 100% made of emotions that he doesn’t know how to handle, they are dialed up to 11 in him and he doesn’t know how to turn them back down. And they’re cringe-worthy because he is so very desperate and so very awkward and he doesn’t really know how to handle any of this, but he can’t not reach out to her, he can’t not spill his feelings everywhere.
Anakin Skywalker is someone who is emotions turned way the fuck up and then left at that level–when you want so many things so desperately, when you know you shouldn’t be like this, but you can’t stop yourself, when you have those brain weasels in your head, yeah, you get pretty “whiny” because you’re struggling to stay afloat and it just doesn’t fucking work, but you’re still full of all these feelings and they gotta go somewhere, so they burst out of you and blind you, because they’re just so intense you can’t see past them. They consume you.
And, honestly, I wouldn’t change him. Anakin Skywalker being an actual goddamned emotional mess is what made me understand him and come to love him!
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 12:25 am (UTC)Honestly, Obi-Wan would be dead, I"m pretty sure. And who knows if Yoda would have been able to kill Anakin or not. The reason Obi-Wan could match Anakin so well is because they knew each other, because they were perfectly matched. The implication was that, yes, Anakin was stronger than Sidious, so I'm guessing Yoda probably would have failed against Anakin, but Obi-Wan definitely would have failed against Sidious and might win against Anakin. They really had no other options, the Sith had forced their hand in this.
The Jedi take kids to be trained, and that means that they can mould them and, essentially, get rid of their emotions or train them out of them.
Actually, they say not to get rid of emotions! Obi-Wan says in TCW that emotions are normal and expected. Depa says in the comics that those feelings are valued and not to be suppressed. Mace says in the comics that someone who doesn't speak the same language as he does, well, "emotion is their shared tongue". And, honestly, all the Jedi are showing emotion all over the place in the movies and the comics!
It's about not getting lost in those feelings, because they're psychic and tapping into all living things, which are blaring feelings at them, so they have to be in control, otherwise those emotions will control them.
The Jedi have never said Anakin (or anyone else) should be emotionless, only when Anakin starts to lose control does anyone say that he needs to reign it back in--and Rebels shows us why that's bad, like when Ezra goes out of control and his fear causes the fyrnocks to attack, that's straight up because he lost control of his emotions and put everyone around him in danger.
And there's a really great essay from an actual psychologist about how the Jedi ways actually are analgous to therapy (here), so there is a support network for Anakin, it's just not the one he wants, which is Palpatine telling him his feelings make him special. I mean, I get why Anakin does it, and I have such empathy for him (because I see A LOT of him in myself), but he definitely had the tools to help him and chose not to. ):
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 12:28 am (UTC)I'm genuinely not trying to start a fight with you or anything, I get that sometimes I get really passionate, but I promise that I respect your position and your kindness towards me, regardless of where we end up in this discussion.
(It's probably unnecessary to state all this BUT IT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER TO SAY IT. XD)
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 12:59 am (UTC)Oh yeah, I think some of that stuff Jedi critical stuff is still in my mind even now. Some of it seems to be really hard to shake.
Hey that’s ok! Passion is good! And I love that your so passionate!
💜
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 01:06 am (UTC)So, thank you for being kind and reassuring! ♥
LOOK, I'M A NERD, YOU GUYS ALL KNEW WHAT YOU WERE SIGNING UP FOR WHEN YOU LOGGED ONTO THIS JOURNAL. ^_~
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 01:10 am (UTC)That’s ok!
Of course! I don’t often get to nerd out about Star Wars half as much as I’d like to so this is good!
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 01:08 am (UTC)I’ve not read the comics with Depain but now that you mention those things I vaguely recall them. I’ve not seen the Clone Wars in awhile so I’d probably got hazy on some of the bits in them (I hope to do a full rewatch before the new eps)
Like you mentioned there were a lot of Jedi critical stuff and some of it has ended up sticking unfortunately.
You make very good points there as always!
Yeah Palpatine seemed to manoeuvre himself to poison Anakin so well. It would be interesting to see more of their relationship between I and II and see if the Jedi ever tried to stop it
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 01:27 am (UTC)A lot of people really love Legends and I love a lot about Legends, too! But there's a reason I'm hard on the delineation between it and Canon--because the creators and owners of Star Wars have always and consistently said that's how it works.
MY POINT IS, that there's a lot of stuff out there that people will point to (especially taken out of context, because SO MUCH of this fandom hasn't actually read what they're repeating, I suspect) and so it's not like I'm going HOW COULD ANYONE EVER POSSIBLY THINK THAT??? but instead, "Here's why I strongly disagree. Agree or not at your own pace! :D"
Yeah Palpatine seemed to manoeuvre himself to poison Anakin so well. It would be interesting to see more of their relationship between I and II and see if the Jedi ever tried to stop it
*ROLLS UP SLEEVES* See, I love this question, because I think it's pretty clearly they did, as much as they realistically could have. In the Obi-Wan & Anakin comic, Mace tries to object to Palpatine spending time with Anakin, but Palpatine pulls rank on them and forces the situation. The thing is, they have no proof of Palpatine being evil, and we've seen a lot of canon pov stuff (I'm especially thinking of Scum and Villainy right now, the recent guidebook) where people legitimately thought Palpatine was super cool, so within the universe we're meant to understand that nobody really suspects him directly, he just seems like another politician.
We also see the Jedi object to Palpatine wanting to send Anakin back to Tatooine in the The Clone Wars movie, but he pulls rank on them again. (There was a third instance, but I forget it now. XD) These are small moments, but I think they tell a pretty compelling story about how, yes, the Jedi did try to stop it, but they had no concrete evidence with which to actually make a stand on! They just had a vague dislike of the situation, but nothing they could point to!
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 01:42 am (UTC)Like I said in the other post the legends novels I liked the most were ones that never dealt with Jedi all the much, which I think is for the best.
That’s ok! I admire your passion (and love the thought you put into things ).
Yeah I read Anakin and Obi-Wan for the first time a couple of months back and thought there was a lot of great stuff in there. (Especially how Obi-Wan was willing to leave with Anakin if he did!)
Scum and Villiany looks so awesome, I really need to get it soon after Christmas. But anyway!
Yeah, I think it’s clear that they did attempt to stop it, but they never succeeded because he would pull rank like that. He may be just another politician, but it’s clear they see it’s strange that he has this interest in Anakin. But like you say they have no proof until it’s far too late
I recall that Palpatine did use his influence in the Clone Wars to get Anakin moved from where he was stationed at least once (during the Krell episodes I think?)
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 03:09 am (UTC)I had to buy it pretty much right away because of the calendar info and because it wasn't super expensive and it's such a gorgeous book! These books really are so much prettier in person, the physical copies in your hands are always going to outshine any scans on-line!
He may be just another politician, but it’s clear they see it’s strange that he has this interest in Anakin. But like you say they have no proof until it’s far too late
We don't really even know how much they suspected anything untoward, just how far that suspicion went. If nothing else, they don't know that he's the Sith Lord they're searching for until ROTS, so it's pretty safe to say that, while they weren't precisely fans, they didn't have any in-universe knowledge of how genuinely dangerous he was. And the point is very much made that Palpatine was actually very convincing in-universe! He comes across as hammy and super obvious to us, the audience, because Ian McDairmid played him that way, but in-universe? Nobody really knew, except those he revealed himself to.
Oh, that's the other thing! ROTS! They really, intensely did not want to put Anakin on the Council, but they apparently weren't even ALLOWED to say no, once Palpatine put his foot down. They did the only thing they could to object--and because Anakin frankly WAS NOT READY to be a Master--but they still had to do what the Chancellor said!
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 02:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 03:12 am (UTC)I still think it carries weight in the sense of Anakin's portrayal in it, because that's what Stover talks about the most of how he had no wiggle room on it, so it can be used as a frame of reference to how George Lucas approved of Anakin, but you can't use it as Canon.
So, I'd say not quite on the level of Word of God, certainly not on the level of Canon, but carrying more weight than the other stuff of Legends, just a bit.
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 04:57 am (UTC)One thing I really enjoyed about the novel was the part where Anakin was like "hmmm, slaughtering people? I kind of enjoy this, fuck yeah :) finally!!! :D" because in the movie you see him crying while he kills. So I'm torn between these both scenes, because I like them both lol :D